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	<title>Comments for Greek Language and Linguistics</title>
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	<description>Ancient Greek, mostly Hellenistic</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 23:18:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Micheal W. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheal W. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 23:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for joining the discussion, Steve. UNC Chapel Hill&#039;s main library has a copy of the three volume set you mention. At least they did a decade ago. I had the pleasure of reading it when I was there back in the mid 1990s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for joining the discussion, Steve. UNC Chapel Hill&#8217;s main library has a copy of the three volume set you mention. At least they did a decade ago. I had the pleasure of reading it when I was there back in the mid 1990s.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by serunge</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>serunge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 21:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-420</guid>
		<description>Eric,

There is another factor that needs to get mentioned here: the prototypical means of joining clauses in English. Unless there is some good reason to do otherwise, we do not use conjunctions to join clauses in English. This absence of a connecting particle is called &quot;asyndeton&quot; by grammarians.  This means that the only time you&#039;ll hear conjunctions in English is where some relationship needs to be specified, most often subordination. So the frequency of use of connecting particles varies from language to language.

In narrative writing like the Gospels and Acts in Greek, and like the Pentateuch and Historical books in Hebrew, most every clause is joined by their equivalent of &quot;and.&quot; This is why is sounds like it is overused; by English standards it is. However, this does not make it wrong, just different compared to your English sensibilities. In the non-narrative writings in both languages, asyndeton is much more common. 

I am traveling at the moment, but I&#039;d suggest reading the article in the book &quot;Language Typology and Syntactic Description&quot; edited by Timothy Shopen on strategies for connecting clauses. It is a three volume set sitting on my book shelf, but not being there I can&#039;t tell you the specific author and volume. You could also find an overview in an introduction to language typology, something that focuses on languages besides English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>There is another factor that needs to get mentioned here: the prototypical means of joining clauses in English. Unless there is some good reason to do otherwise, we do not use conjunctions to join clauses in English. This absence of a connecting particle is called &#8220;asyndeton&#8221; by grammarians.  This means that the only time you&#8217;ll hear conjunctions in English is where some relationship needs to be specified, most often subordination. So the frequency of use of connecting particles varies from language to language.</p>
<p>In narrative writing like the Gospels and Acts in Greek, and like the Pentateuch and Historical books in Hebrew, most every clause is joined by their equivalent of &#8220;and.&#8221; This is why is sounds like it is overused; by English standards it is. However, this does not make it wrong, just different compared to your English sensibilities. In the non-narrative writings in both languages, asyndeton is much more common. </p>
<p>I am traveling at the moment, but I&#8217;d suggest reading the article in the book &#8220;Language Typology and Syntactic Description&#8221; edited by Timothy Shopen on strategies for connecting clauses. It is a three volume set sitting on my book shelf, but not being there I can&#8217;t tell you the specific author and volume. You could also find an overview in an introduction to language typology, something that focuses on languages besides English.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Eric Rasmusen</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Rasmusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 16:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-419</guid>
		<description>The Steve Runge discussion is very clear, even for an amateur like me. It does make me think even more that it&#039;s important in Greek to keep  in mind that writing without punctuation necessitates using words in different ways. Commas, semi-colons, and colons are conjunctions too, and maybe even a literal translation should translate kai using them instead of a word. 

    I wonder: could it be that the use of kai is a literary device not used in speech? (just as we don&#039;t say &quot;period&quot; in speech ordinarily).  When my kids were preschoolers I&#039;d have them dictate stories to me, and they had a tendency to start every sentence &quot;And then...&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Steve Runge discussion is very clear, even for an amateur like me. It does make me think even more that it&#8217;s important in Greek to keep  in mind that writing without punctuation necessitates using words in different ways. Commas, semi-colons, and colons are conjunctions too, and maybe even a literal translation should translate kai using them instead of a word. </p>
<p>    I wonder: could it be that the use of kai is a literary device not used in speech? (just as we don&#8217;t say &#8220;period&#8221; in speech ordinarily).  When my kids were preschoolers I&#8217;d have them dictate stories to me, and they had a tendency to start every sentence &#8220;And then&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Eric Rasmusen</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-418</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Rasmusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 16:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-418</guid>
		<description>Thanks. My Greek is limited to interlinear, and I deliberately didn&#039;t cut out that last kai because it didn&#039;t seem to separate two possible sentences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. My Greek is limited to interlinear, and I deliberately didn&#8217;t cut out that last kai because it didn&#8217;t seem to separate two possible sentences.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Micheal W. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-417</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheal W. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 21:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-417</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Eeli.

Runge gives a clear discussion of the difference between καί on the one hand, and the English conjunctions &quot;and&quot; and &quot;but&quot; on the other. Here&#039;s a brief excerpt from page 16.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Καί does not mark a distinction of semantic continuity or discontinuity, it merely indicates that the connected elements are to be closely related to one another. Stated another way, καί links two items of equal status.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Eeli.</p>
<p>Runge gives a clear discussion of the difference between καί on the one hand, and the English conjunctions &#8220;and&#8221; and &#8220;but&#8221; on the other. Here&#8217;s a brief excerpt from page 16.</p>
<blockquote><p>
Καί does not mark a distinction of semantic continuity or discontinuity, it merely indicates that the connected elements are to be closely related to one another. Stated another way, καί links two items of equal status.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Eeli Kaikkonen</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-416</link>
		<dc:creator>Eeli Kaikkonen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 08:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-416</guid>
		<description>Steve Runge has written something very helpful about kai (and de) in his Discourse Grammar. The relevant part of it is even available online for free reading: http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Discourse%20grammar%20sample.pdf. I heartily recommend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve Runge has written something very helpful about kai (and de) in his Discourse Grammar. The relevant part of it is even available online for free reading: <a href="http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Discourse%20grammar%20sample.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Discourse%20grammar%20sample.pdf</a>. I heartily recommend it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Micheal W. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-415</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheal W. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 03:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-415</guid>
		<description>I failed to mention in my last comment, Eric, that I do not feel competent to judge what constitutes good style in Modern Greek. I may have some readers who might be willing to comment on that, though. Since I&#039;m not a native speaker, I&#039;d better leave that one to those more qualified than me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I failed to mention in my last comment, Eric, that I do not feel competent to judge what constitutes good style in Modern Greek. I may have some readers who might be willing to comment on that, though. Since I&#8217;m not a native speaker, I&#8217;d better leave that one to those more qualified than me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Micheal W. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-414</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheal W. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 02:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-414</guid>
		<description>It was not bad style in Ancient Greek to start a sentence with καί. But of course that&#039;s a little presumptuous of me to say, since there was no punctuation in the oldest Greek texts. What we call a &quot;sentence&quot; is a subjective judgment imposed later. Still, it is quite true that clauses very often began with καί if there was a desire to connect their content in any number of ways with the previous clause.

Your question about versification raises another issue of structure imposed at a later date. Chapter and verse numbers were added to the New Testament texts long after they were written. None of the oldest manuscripts contain them. While legends exist about their origin, the truth is that we do not know who added them. 

Most of the chapter and verse numbers are located in places that make sense in a very general way, but they are not always aligned with the most reasonable place to break a sentence. If you do not read Greek, you can see this easily by comparing a few of the more modern translations. You will notice that some verse numbers fall in the middle of the sentence in these translations.

I would definitely not recommend taking the verse numbers as an indication of where to break up a sentence.

Your proposed structure works as well as the one indicated by the verse numbers. The instances of καί link clauses together, and you have separated those clauses out on different lines. Notice, though that you have left one instance of καί in the middle of a clause:

εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι
to which indeed you were called in one body
to which you were called in one body (Col. 3:15)

This is one of those places where the usage of καί does not match English. Here it is sometimes translated as &quot;indeed&quot; or even left untranslated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was not bad style in Ancient Greek to start a sentence with καί. But of course that&#8217;s a little presumptuous of me to say, since there was no punctuation in the oldest Greek texts. What we call a &#8220;sentence&#8221; is a subjective judgment imposed later. Still, it is quite true that clauses very often began with καί if there was a desire to connect their content in any number of ways with the previous clause.</p>
<p>Your question about versification raises another issue of structure imposed at a later date. Chapter and verse numbers were added to the New Testament texts long after they were written. None of the oldest manuscripts contain them. While legends exist about their origin, the truth is that we do not know who added them. </p>
<p>Most of the chapter and verse numbers are located in places that make sense in a very general way, but they are not always aligned with the most reasonable place to break a sentence. If you do not read Greek, you can see this easily by comparing a few of the more modern translations. You will notice that some verse numbers fall in the middle of the sentence in these translations.</p>
<p>I would definitely not recommend taking the verse numbers as an indication of where to break up a sentence.</p>
<p>Your proposed structure works as well as the one indicated by the verse numbers. The instances of καί link clauses together, and you have separated those clauses out on different lines. Notice, though that you have left one instance of καί in the middle of a clause:</p>
<p>εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι<br />
to which indeed you were called in one body<br />
to which you were called in one body (Col. 3:15)</p>
<p>This is one of those places where the usage of καί does not match English. Here it is sometimes translated as &#8220;indeed&#8221; or even left untranslated.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Usage of καί by Eric Rasmusen</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-413</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Rasmusen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 02:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141#comment-413</guid>
		<description>I see that kai can be used as a conjunction, like the English &quot;and&quot;.  Usually in English, though, it is a bad to use &quot;and&quot; to start a sentence in place of the alternatives of replacing the period with a comma or deleting the &quot;and&quot;. The same must be true in Greek, even if it so common that readers are used to it.  Does modern Greek use both punctuation  and kai as a way to separate sentences? If it doesn&#039;t that would an indication that the ancient kai is serving  as a sort of  punctuation. 

     If that is true, it’s similar to something I’ve started doing myself with HTML. My webpage says:  “My notes on Acrobat and Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and broadband connecting and Excel and Geometer&#039;s Sketchpad and Google and HTML…” (Rasmusen.org) because each of the software names is in blue because it is a hyperlink, and I want to separate the blue words with black “and”s  so readers will realize they are different hyperlinks. 

     Another thought. I know it’s presumptuous, but can Colossians 3:12 be split up differently than the verses do it. Here’s the versification: 

Colossians 3:12. Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν,

3:13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν: καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς:
3:14 ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην, ὅ ἐστιν σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος.
3:15 καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι: καὶ εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε.

Here’s another way to slice it. Does this make any sense in Greek? 

Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων.

 καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν  καθὼς.

 καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν οὕτως.

 καὶ ὑμεῖς ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην, ὅ ἐστιν σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος. 

  καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι.

 καὶ εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε.

Does that make any sense, or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that kai can be used as a conjunction, like the English &#8220;and&#8221;.  Usually in English, though, it is a bad to use &#8220;and&#8221; to start a sentence in place of the alternatives of replacing the period with a comma or deleting the &#8220;and&#8221;. The same must be true in Greek, even if it so common that readers are used to it.  Does modern Greek use both punctuation  and kai as a way to separate sentences? If it doesn&#8217;t that would an indication that the ancient kai is serving  as a sort of  punctuation. </p>
<p>     If that is true, it’s similar to something I’ve started doing myself with HTML. My webpage says:  “My notes on Acrobat and Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop and broadband connecting and Excel and Geometer&#8217;s Sketchpad and Google and HTML…” (Rasmusen.org) because each of the software names is in blue because it is a hyperlink, and I want to separate the blue words with black “and”s  so readers will realize they are different hyperlinks. </p>
<p>     Another thought. I know it’s presumptuous, but can Colossians 3:12 be split up differently than the verses do it. Here’s the versification: </p>
<p>Colossians 3:12. Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν,</p>
<p>3:13 ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν: καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς:<br />
3:14 ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην, ὅ ἐστιν σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος.<br />
3:15 καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι: καὶ εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε.</p>
<p>Here’s another way to slice it. Does this make any sense in Greek? </p>
<p>Ἐνδύσασθε οὖν ὡς ἐκλεκτοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἅγιοι καὶ ἠγαπημένοι, σπλάγχνα οἰκτιρμοῦ, χρηστότητα, ταπεινοφροσύνην, πραΰτητα, μακροθυμίαν ἀνεχόμενοι ἀλλήλων.</p>
<p> καὶ χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς ἐάν τις πρός τινα ἔχῃ μομφήν  καθὼς.</p>
<p> καὶ ὁ κύριος ἐχαρίσατο ὑμῖν οὕτως.</p>
<p> καὶ ὑμεῖς ἐπὶ πᾶσιν δὲ τούτοις τὴν ἀγάπην, ὅ ἐστιν σύνδεσμος τῆς τελειότητος. </p>
<p>  καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ Χριστοῦ βραβευέτω ἐν ταῖς καρδίαις ὑμῶν, εἰς ἣν καὶ ἐκλήθητε ἐν ἑνὶ σώματι.</p>
<p> καὶ εὐχάριστοι γίνεσθε.</p>
<p>Does that make any sense, or not?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Punctuation in Ancient Greek Texts by Micheal W. Palmer</title>
		<link>http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=657#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheal W. Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 00:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Because Eric&#039;s question raises the broader issue of the usage of καί in addition to the punctuation issue, I have moved my response to a new discussion focussed specifically on the use of καί. You can find that discussion here:

http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because Eric&#8217;s question raises the broader issue of the usage of καί in addition to the punctuation issue, I have moved my response to a new discussion focussed specifically on the use of καί. You can find that discussion here:</p>
<p><a href="http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141" rel="nofollow">http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=1141</a></p>
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